An interview with Vanillaware founder, George Kamitani, on how the studio came to be.
Interviewer: TAITAI, Deputy Editor
English-language edits by Ishaan Sahdev
Originally published in Japanese on 4Gamer on May 21, 2013.
Dragon's Crown is the latest title by George Kamitani, who has created numerous masterpiece action games, and has been attracting a great deal of attention. Will it be an arcade-like game, or will it have RPG elements like Princess Crown? 4Gamer contacted Atlus to get a hands-on look at the game, which is presently in development.
It turns out that this title, while based on traditional belt-scrolling action games, has a challenging growth element, as well as a Diablo-like treasure-hunting element. It is more of a full-fledged RPG than an arcade action game.
Mr. Kamitani is known for his involvement in the development of the classic arcade game Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom, and its sequel Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara. Both are among the games that I was addicted to in high school. If such games were to be made more RPG-like and evolved in a truly modern style...
I couldn't help but think, "Could this be some sort of dream game?"
Finding myself intrigued, I decided to interview Mr. Kamitani of Vanillaware. He is a creator who, despite his high name recognition in the game industry, has not received much exposure through interviews. We felt this would be a good opportunity to find out what kind of company Vanillaware is, and to get a closer look at Mr. Kamitani's personality.
George Kamitani has worked for various game companies, including Capcom and Atlus, and is currently the president of Vanillaware. In this five-hour interview, he talks about the process of creating Dragon's Crown, as well as his various experiences as a game creator.
How George Kamitani entered the games industry
4Gamer:
Thank you for doing this. Today, I would like to ask you about what kind of company Vanillaware is. And I would also like to ask about you, the person who heads the company.
Kamitani:
Thank you very much for your time. This could turn into quite the lengthy interview, though. Is that all right? (chuckles)
4Gamer:
Of course!
Kamitani:
So, where would you like to begin?
4Gamer:
Let's start with how you first got into the games industry.
Kamitani:
I entered the games industry right around the time of the Famicom bubble. When I was a freshman in high school, a friend of mine was working part-time at a small local software company. Originally, it was a company that made business software, but when the revenue from their subcontracted Famicom games exceeded their core business, they quickly expanded.
4Gamer:
That's a story typical of the early days of the market.
Kamitani:
The company was looking for a part-timer who could draw dot graphics, and a friend of mine, who had been drawing dots as a hobby, approached me. At the time, I tricked my parents into buying a computer because I thought it would improve my math grades, but in reality, all I did was play games (laughs).
4Gamer:
A common story... (laughs).
Kamitani:
When I actually got a part-time job, it was porting adult games for the PC-8801 to the MSX (laughs). The first job I learned there was lap scanning*. In those days, there were no convenient things like scanners, so we had to do all the graphics porting by hand.
* This method involved laying a piece of plastic wrap over the picture, tracing it with a magic marker, and then attaching it to the monitor to trace the dots. This method was commonly used before scanners became widely available.
4Gamer:
It's a story that really conveys what things were like at the time, isn't it?
Kamitani:
Yes, it is. I was taught, "The trick is to keep your head still!" And so, I worked diligently as a part-time worker, drawing sexually-explicit pictures with dots. In those days, in addition to dots, I was also entrusted with porting programs. As a part-time member of a subcontracting company, I had the opportunity to do a lot of things. One of my most memorable jobs was the Famicom port of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Hillsfar released by Pony Canyon. I did all the graphics for the Famicom version.
4Gamer:
That was in high school? That's already quite a rich career.
Kamitani:
By the time I graduated from college, I was thinking of leaving my hometown of Hiroshima and moving to Osaka to work for a major video game company. I applied to several game companies in the Kansai area, including Nintendo and Capcom.
4Gamer:
Did you want to be a designer?
Kamitani:
No, I took all kinds of employment exams. Eventually, I ended up joining Capcom, but when I was job hunting, I applied to all positions: designer, programmer, and planner. Capcom was a very dynamic company at the time, and I liked the open-mindedness of the company's leader, Yoshiki Okamoto*, so I joined them without hesitation.
* Yoshiki Okamoto: Former senior managing director of Capcom. He was in charge of directing Time Pilot and SonSon. Later founded Game Republic.
4Gamer:
What kind of work did you do at Capcom?
Kamitani:
I wanted to learn how to design a game from scratch, so I joined Capcom as a planner. During my time there—I think it was 1992 to 1993—Street Fighter II was a huge hit, and Capcom fighting games were in high demand at the company. I was assigned to the arcade development department, and when I first joined, almost all of the development lines were making so-called belt-scrolling action games.
4Gamer:
Is that so?
Kamitani:
I wanted to experience a project from beginning to end as soon as possible, so I was assigned to the Saturday Night Slam Masters development team, which seemed to be in the final stages of development among the many development lines. I wasn't really interested in professional wrestling, but my seniors at the time would've gotten angry with me had I said that.
4Gamer:
Saturday Night Slam Masters takes me back.
Kamitani:
I joined Saturday Night Slam Masters thinking it was in the final stages of development, but there was a change to a "post-fighting game" approach midway through the development process, and development went on for a very long time.
4Gamer:
Saturday Night Slam Masters was rather unique in that era of fighting games, wasn't it?
Kamitani:
Saturday Night Slam Masters is a wrestling game, so it mainly features throwing techniques. And so, there were quite a lot of graphical patterns in the game, such as when the fighters were grappling with their opponents. It was quite complicated.
4Gamer:
There were many different types of grapples, such as four-handed grapples and backhanded turns.
Kamitani:
Right, right. And my job as a planner was to create patterns for these throwing techniques. We would combine arms, legs, and various other graphical parts, and animate the moves with the levers on the chassis. As a matter of fact, Vanillaware's 2D tools were eventually created based on that experience.
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| Vanillaware is best known for its exquisitely-drawn 2D graphics. |
Memories of the fun Capcom days
4Gamer:
It is well known that you were involved in the development of Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom (hereinafter referred to as D&D).
Kamitani:
That was after Saturday Night Slam Masters. However, when I joined the team, the project was already in its latter stages. I worked as a sub-planner and was in charge of the logic of the Red Dragon and other things that appeared in the game.
4Gamer:
Oh, you mean the one with just a face and hands?
Kamitani:
That's the one (laughs). But even though I worked hard on it, I got teary-eyed when I read in Gamest magazine that they thought it was "easier than Beholder". That was when I realized how hard it is to properly create the logic of an action game. I also helped with course specifications on that project, and I really enjoyed working with the D&D development team. That feeling has been carried over to this Dragon's Crown game.
4Gamer:
But you left Capcom a while after development on D&D was completed, didn't you?
Kamitani:
I felt that even if I stayed at Capcom, I wouldn't be able to become a director. Capcom had a huge number of employees at the time, and there were a lot of really talented people at the company. If I had just done things the normal way, I would never have gotten a chance to work my way up. And so, I was wondering what I should do next.
4Gamer:
I see.
Kamitani:
In fact, right before I left, I unreasonably asked my boss, Okamoto-san, to let me present a project to him. I'm not sure what was going through my head at the time, but it was a fighting game project involving high school girls. Looking back on it now, that project was so full of issues there was no way it would've gotten approved (laughs). But I really wanted to make a whole game with my own hands. So I said, "I'll start small and work my way up," and decided to quit Capcom.
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| Princess Crown |
4Gamer:
Where did you go after you left Capcom?
Kamitani:
I was invited by a former upper classmate to join a small game company in the Kansai region. It was originally an adult game production company, but I was told, "We're going to make consumer games from now on, so you should join up. I said, "I'll join if they'll let me work on an original project," and with that I joined them.
Actually, this happened to be the same company that had made an adult game I'd ported while still in high school. It was at this company that I began to work on the project that would become the basis of Princess Crown*.
* An action RPG released in the latter half of Sega Saturn. The drawn graphics and the smoothness of the animation became a hot topic. One of the representative works of the 2D action RPG genre.
4Gamer:
Ahh. So that's where the name "Princess Crown" comes from.
Kamitani:
That's right. In the very first proposal, we were trying to make a game like Princess Maker 2, a training game with multiple endings. We envisioned a game in which the training part was turned into a fighting-action game. I could only write specifications for a fighting game or an action game, so I had no choice but to approach it that way in my head (laughs).
4Gamer:
But Princess Crown was a game with strong RPG elements, wasn't it?
Kamitani:
There's a deep, meaningful story behind that, actually. At the time, I was going around with a proposal to present to game makers, and when I brought it to Sega, the person in charge said to me, "This is an RPG, isn't it?" And I replied, 'Yes!' on the spur of the moment (bitter smile).
4Gamer:
Huh?
Kamitani:
At the time, there was a battle for market share between PlayStation and Sega Saturn, and it was hard to tell which would win. Both camps wanted RPG titles in popular genres, so we thought, "The only way to get this project greenlit is to make it an RPG." And in the middle of our presentation, we said, "Of course it's an RPG! With a playing time of about 40 hours..."
4Gamer:
But how did you actually go about developing it?
Kamitani:
On the bullet train on the way home, the main programmer and I had a hard time wrapping our heads around it. In the end, we decided, "We said what we said, so let's just make an RPG with gumption. We reworked the specifications and finally got the go-ahead for the project at the end of 1995 and began production... but a year later, at the end of 1996, a problem arose.
4Gamer:
A problem?
Kamitani:
During the development of Princess Crown, the company we were working for went bankrupt.
4Gamer:
Oh. What happened after that?
Kamitani:
I rushed to contact the person in charge at Sega and asked if there was anything we could do. Unfortunately, at the time, Sega and Bandai were in the midst of discussing a merger, and so we were in a real fix. But then, they introduced me to Atlus instead, which had a good relationship with Sega at the time.
4Gamer:
I see... That's a heck of a development.
Kamitani:
At the time, Sega and Atlus had a very good relationship because of Print Club, which was a huge hit, and it appeared that they were able to consult with one another on what was looking to be a risky project. As a result, Atlus accepted a portion of the development costs and the Princess Crown project was restarted as a joint between Sega and Atlus.
4Gamer:
That was when information about Princess Crown began to appear in the wild (in magazines and so on), wasn't it?
Kamitani:
That's right. We can laugh about it now, but I really don't know what would've happened had Atlas had not helped us at the time. Obviously, Princess Crown would never have been released, and the development team would have been out on the street. And if I think back on it, it eventually led us to Odin Sphere and now Dragon's Crown. So I still feel indebted to Atlus.
When bread crusts were the staple diet and no games could be made
4Gamer:
So the members of the Princess Crown development team would later become the main body of Vanillaware?
Kamitani:
No, that isn't the case. A while after Princess Crown, the development team had to be disbanded in its entirety, and Vanillaware was started much later with a completely different set of members. Basically, after Princess Crown, the team went through a difficult period where we couldn't make a proper game for about ten years.
4Gamer:
There is quite a large gap of time between Princess Crown (1997) and the release of Vanillaware's first game, Odin Sphere (2007).
Kamitani:
That's right. After our company was rescued from bankruptcy, we joined Atlus Kansai (the Atlus Osaka Development Office; some members later became independent as Noise Factory), which had produced the Power Instinct series among other games. The development team for Princess Crown was the first team I had ever had, so I was personally quite attached to it. And so, I wanted to work with this team on the next title, and that was when we came up with the Dragon's Crown project. But then, Atlas Kansai itself was later disbanded.
4Gamer:
Princess Crown was a very well-received title, but things still didn't work out?
Kamitani:
Princess Crown was released at the end of the Sega Saturn's life, so its sales weren't all that high . There was also a large loss due to the developer going bankrupt. Therefore, it was branded a loss-making project at the time, and the reputation of the people involved wasn't good at all.
4Gamer:
I see.
Kamitani:
As for me, I wanted to retain the team somehow. After the development of Princess Crown, all the staff members had improved, and I had a feeling that if I could make the next game with this team, we would be able to create something even better. But at the time, I didn't have the courage or determination to start my own company. As a result, I asked an Osaka-based development company called Racjin to absorb our team members.
4Gamer:
Racjin is the same company that used to employ Mr. Matsumoto* of Flight Unit, isn't it?
* Hiroyuki Matsumoto: Representative Director of Flight Unit, who entered the game industry in 1992 when he joined the Osaka game production company Racjin. He later worked for Sega before going independent. He has been interviewed by 4Gamer in the past.
Kamitani:
Oh, that's right. I didn't have any contact with Mr. Matsumoto while at Racjin, but he did help me a great deal in the development of Fantasy Earth. Anyway, at that point, the development team for Princess Crown was effectively disbanded [and absorbed into Racjin].
4Gamer:
It is a little surprising that there wasn't a separate production group like "Team Kamitani" after Princess Crown.
Kamitani:
Yeah. After Princess Crown, I became a little isolated. Or, to put it bluntly, I was in a "floating state" during my time at Racjin. I tried my best to come up with various projects, but it wasn't always easy to make things happen...
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| Etrian Odyssey Untold |
4Gamer:
I see...
Kamitani:
I was working around the clock as a planning assistant or a support person. At the time, Komori-kun*, a former Atlus Kansai staff member who helped me with the development of Princess Crown, went to work for Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE). He asked me to join him, and so I moved to Tokyo.
* Shigeo Komori: Shigeo Komori was in charge of the world setting and story of the Etrian Odyssey series. He was the director of Etrian Odyssey II: Heroes of Lagaard and Etrian Odyssey III: The Drowned City. His latest work is Etrian Odyssey Untold: The Millennium Girl.
4Gamer:
Stories of your time at SCE have never really come out, have they?
Kamitani:
Well, I'm not able to discuss that due to confidentiality obligations. A lot of things happened during my time at SCE, but as it turned out, things never really took shape. A team that I had assembled over the course of nearly a year was left in pieces, and I found myself on my own with Onishi, a programmer who is now at Vanillaware, who stuck it out with me. Back then, we didn't have any money and couldn't even cook for ourselves. We were living on about 200 yen a day, and my staple food was bread crusts.
4Gamer:
Bread crusts? How old were you when you were living on bread crusts?
Kamitani:
It was around 2001, so I was 32 years old. So, even if I had gone back to Osaka, I wouldn't have been able to get a job. And so, I had no choice but to stay in Tokyo and try to find a job there. That's when I was introduced to a project that later developed into Fantasy Earth Zero.
4Gamer:
That was initially a project by a company named Multiterm, which made middleware for online games, to promote their engine, wasn't it?
Kamitani:
Right, right. You know your stuff. At first, it was a project with a slightly grimy setting where vampires and humans were fighting, but after I was chosen as the director, the producer said to me, "If it's you, Kamitani-san, it should be a princess and fantasy setting." At the time, I thought to myself, "Oh, so from now on, my trademark will be that of a princess." (laughs) When I was contracted to work on Fantasy Earth Zero, I created a company called "Puraguru" for administrative reasons, which became the predecessor of Vanillaware.
4Gamer:
I've heard that the Fantasy Earth Zero project was quite a difficult one.
Kamitani:
Yeah, it was one of the toughest projects I've ever worked on. In particular, I had to put a lot of strain on Shigatake-kun*. Early on, he would say things like, "I love Princess Crown!" and his eyes would light up, so I thought it was a good idea and tricked him into joining the company.
* An illustrator at Vanillaware. He has been involved in almost all of Vanillaware's works and is also known as the creator uthor of Habanero-tan.
4Gamer:
You really pulled the wool over his eyes (laughs).
Kamitani:
After I joined Fantasy Earth Zero, the workload was relentless. I had to create all the backgrounds and buildings by myself, and my eyes became more and more cloudy. One day, I asked him, "Shigatake-kun, can you do this, too?" And he went "Huh? (Basically... Do it yourself)." I was so disappointed (laughs). But I learned that relying on others for everything just because they're capable turns you soft.
4Gamer:
I don't know if I should laugh or not... (bitter smile)
Kamitani:
Obviously, that isn't the case anymore... I think (laughs).
The proposal for Princess Crown 2 miraculously passes
4Gamer:
It was after you left the Fantasy Earth Zero project that Vanillaware was finally established.
Kamitani:
There were five of us: me, programmer Onishi, Shigatake, former Princess Crown team member Nishii who came back, and a newcomer who had quit the project but came back with us from Fantasy Earth Zero.
4Gamer:
So you and Nishii-san were the only members from the Princess Crown development team?
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| Odin Sphere |
Kamitani:
One more member of the old Princess Crown team would join us later, but at this time we were the only two original members. All of us were working on the Princess Crown 2 project (later to be called Odin Sphere) together.
4Gamer:
Just five people? For a game of that scale?
Kamitani:
Yes. Shigatake-kun, for example, was always worried. "Can you really make a game with just five people?" I didn't think too much about it, though, thinking that it was nothing compared to Fantasy Earth Zero, where graphics were created in their entirety by just three or four people (laughs).
4Gamer:
Did you recruit any additional members?
Kamitani:
We were always looking for more people, but just couldn't manage it. In the end, we had a team of a little over ten. At that point in time, the only project to our name—or rather, my name—that was publicly known was Princess Crown. There weren't many people that wanted to join a shady, unknown company like ours.
4Gamer:
It certainly sounds tough.
Kamitani:
I later heard that when we presented the Princess Crown 2 project (which is what we called it to get it through) to Atlus, there was a strong opinion even within their ranks along the lines of "this sounds dangerous". Objectively speaking, I was a director that hadn't produced a single title in the seven or eight years since the loss-making Princess Crown project. There was no reason for anyone to put their faith in me.
4Gamer:
Hmmm.
Kamitani:
But Hideyuki Yokoyama*, who was the head of development at Atlus at the time, said, "That's great, let's do it! Let's do it!" Miraculously, the project was approved. This was the second time that Mr. Yokoyama had helped me, including Princess Crown, and I am truly indebted to him. So, when the development budget came through, we decided to return to the Kansai region, change our name to Vanillaware, and start all over again from scratch.
* Currently Executive Officer of GungHo Online Entertainment. He is also a Director of Game Arts.
4Gamer:
Did the development of Princess Crown 2, or rather Odin Sphere, go smoothly?
Kamitani:
Other than the delays in delivery, everything went smoothly (laughs). But because of the delays, Vanillaware's credibility with Atlus had been falling off. As soon as we had completed Odin Sphere, I started to go, "And for our next project..." but we were told by Atlus that they would make any further decisions only after the game had actually been released.
Vanillaware is a small company, and we can't survive unless we can smoothly transition from one project to the next. So I would get impatient and ask them just when they were going to release it. And they would say, "We'll decide based on the status of other titles in our lineup, so we're holding off for a bit." That wasn't good for us!
4Gamer:
I hate to put it this way, but it sounds like you can be fairly haphazard...
Kamitani:
I get that a lot (laughs). Anyway, we can't make a living without work, so we rushed to other companies in a hurry, which led us to new projects such as Grim Grimoire with Nippon Ichi Software and Muramasa: The Demon Blade with Marvelous AQL.
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| Muramasa: The Demon Blade received high praise as a 2D action game. |
Keeping at it until the money runs out
Kamitani:
When we were about to finish the development of Grim Grimoire, the company ran out of funds and we were in quite a tight spot. I personally borrowed about 20 million yen to finance the project to completion. It was such a mentally-exhausting time for me that I would see the ceiling moving when I layed down.
4Gamer:
But Odin Sphere sold quite well, didn't it? Didn't you receive a lot of income from development fees and royalties?
Kamitani:
It is true that Atlus had set a high royalty rate, so thankfully we were able to pay back our debts, and were even able to retain some of the company's earnings and give bonuses to everyone. But by the time we finished development on Muramasa, the company found itself in dire straits. In fact, I'm certain it was precisely because we had so much money that we continued to develop our games with no regard for deadlines.
Because of this, Vanillaware would only reach the end of a project when the company had reached the end of its rope (basically, when the funds ran out), and the same holds true even now. I'm surprised that a company like this could survive for ten years, if I may say so myself.
4Gamer:
Normally, I'd think that contracted development involves billing the actual costs plus the profit. Does that make it feasible?
Kamitani:
I don't think so. But I'd had a long period since Princess Crown when I couldn't make games, so I was happy just to be able to do that again.
4Gamer:
In a completely positive way... Vanillaware's a dangerous company.
Kamitani:
I think it's no good as a company (bitter smile). The purpose of the company is to make games as it pleases, not to pursue profit.
4Gamer:
But in a sense, I feel that this is the ideal way of thinking.
Kamitani:
But we don't want to go out of business because of our tendencies. We don't want to be unable to produce our next work. Vanillaware has managed to survive thanks to the support we've received, but if you ask me if this is ideal, I'd say it's a questionable way for a company to operate.
At the same time, some people say that we should think more seriously about making a profit, but if I were to make a profit and have money left over, that money ultimately would go into our games anyway. However, Vanillaware's workforce is increasing, so we have a lot of thinking to do about our future.
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| The characters of Dragon's Crown, designed by Kamitani. |
How to keep doing creative work until you die
4Gamer:
Of late, we've had the opportunity to talk to various creators, and they all seem to be giving serious thought to how they can continue to do creative work until they die.
Kamitani:
It's a poignant question, isn't it? However, as I have learned through managing a company, a corporate organization is required to "always continue to grow". Or to be more precise, society is designed in such a way that a company cannot survive without growing. Therefore, there is a difference between creative work as an individual and creative work as an organization.
4Gamer:
Yeah. Employees grow old, and you can't keep doing the same thing forever.
Kamitani:
That's right. Even at Vanillaware, there are discussions like, "We don't need to make the company bigger, we can just keep going with a small group of people." But I don't think that accounts for the fact that we're all getting older. And unlike individuals, there are large costs involved with running a company.
4Gamer:
When the average age of an employee is in the 20s and 30s, the environment they seek from a company naturally changes...
Kamitani:
If we could work the same way forever, with the same salary and position, we might be able to make it work. But in reality, that isn't the case. The organization constantly needs new talent coming in, and we also need to be able to hire people to create opportunities. Without change happening within the organization, we'd all grow old in the same positions we were in when we joined. On the flip side, the disadvantage of having more people is that you wouldn't be able to pick and choose the kind of work you want to do, when you have increased labor costs to cover for. The more people you have, the more things you have to do outside of the actual creative work.
4Gamer:
There are many for whom managing people isn't what they want to do. It's especially true for creative sorts.
Kamitani:
Seriously, if I could do it all over again, I'd like to stop doing the kind of clerical work that makes me nervous every single time (laughs). At one point, I thought about creating a subcontracting division within Vanillaware that would take care of everything and help stabilize the company, while I would work in the original game production division and create games as I pleased. But then I thought to myself, "I'll let someone else do that."
4Gamer:
I guess it's a question of what a company and its people should accumulate to lead it into the future.
Kamitani:
Ideally, Vanillaware would like to grow solely through producing original games, but if that can't happen and we still continue to expand, and if our main goal becomes extending the life of the company, we may need a reset that doesn't cause trouble for everyone and a way to structure the company that satisfies both needs. Well, either way... as long as we make it big.
4Gamer:
Hmmm (laughs). How do you evaluate yourself as a creator? For example; "George Kamitani as an illustrator."
Kamitani:
In terms of illustrator work, I'd probably be dead on arrival. Even looking at Pixiv, there are many illustrators who are clearly better than me, and if you look at DeviantART, all you experience are tears of sorrow. And when I was at Capcom, I had already learned the hard way that you can't win with pictures. At the moment, we're trying to collectively gain recognition based on the strength of the work produced by the development team.
4Gamer:
When you think of people who influenced you during your time at Capcom, would it be Akiman*?
* Akiman: Game creator and illustrator. His real name is Akira Yasuda. He is famous as a character designer for "Street Fighter II. He created characters such as Chun-Li and Guile.
Kamitani:
Yes, that's right. Yasuda-san was at the top of the heap of great people at Capcom, and I was shocked when I actually met him at work.
4Gamer:
What exactly was it that shocked you?
Kamitani:
I once helped Capcom come up with an idea for a technique for a fighting game, and it just so happened that the technique was adopted, and Yasuda-san turned it into an actual animation. I was astonished at how much better looking the animation was than I had imagined from the picture I had drawn of the technique. It's no surprise that he is a good artist, but what makes Yasuda-san's work so great is his "taste".
4Gamer:
Taste?
Kamitani:
At the time, there were also other great senior artists at Capcom, such as Kinu Nishimura and frightening guys like Gouda Cheese (BENGUS), who did the main illustrations for Darkstalkers. I've been working in the games industry for a long time, but to me, the Capcom of those days is still the pinnacle of the industry, and we still struggle to challenge their accomplishments.
Why Vanillaware sticks to originals
4Gamer:
What I find very unique about Vanillaware's development style is that you're always making, or rather "creating," original works. Is that something you're quite particular about?
Kamitani:
If you mean why we don't make sequels, the answer is simple: because we can't. I wrote the scenario for Grim Grimoire with a sequel in mind, but whether or not to make a sequel depends on various circumstances. In subsequent works, I tried to give them everything I had, including the material I wanted to cover as well as ideas I had been working on prior, so that there were no regrets.
4Gamer:
You mean you give it your all.
Kamitani:
Yeah. By the time I'm finished with a game, I'm completely out of ideas, except for the parts I had no choice but to cut. In Dragon's Crown, I've included most of the material I wanted to. So, even if the game sold surprisingly well, and Atlus said, "Let's make another!" I'd have to reply, "I'm recharging my batteries at the moment, so could you give me a few years before we do that?"
If someone at Vanillaware has an idea, I think it would be possible to make a sequel with that person at the center. However, I myself have plans for other games that I'd like to work on, so I'd request to work on those instead.
4Gamer:
But it isn't easy to make original works. It is very odd that an independent development company can continue to do this.
Kamitani:
Hmmm. Maybe it's because, just by sheer luck, the first game I ever made was an original. Princess Crown didn't sell that many copies, but it was a title that was well received by the industry.
4Gamer:
That makes sense.
Kamitani:
My friends in the industry told me, "It's not fair that you get to do what you love so much in 2D," but the tradeoff was that I was fired from the company after that, and it was hard to make my way back from that (laughs). But whether it was Atlus, Nippon Ichi, or Marvelous, the conversation always began with something like, "Princess Crown is amazing!" So I think it's because of that game.
4Gamer:
It's a brand strategy of sorts, isn't it? However, the real question may be how to create such a work to begin with.
Kamitani:
We were able to create Princess Crown because the PlayStation and Sega Saturn were competing with one another, and that created many opportunities. But normally, companies and creators have no choice but to take risks at their own expense. That's why we worked so hard for so long, eating bread crusts and such (smiles).
4Gamer:
I was surprised to learn that even you were in that situation.
Kamitani:
Without credibility, you have no choice but to sink to the bottom, struggle, and take chances. Ultimately, a company's credibility comes down to its ability to make a profit. At the moment, Vanillaware is allowed to make originals because we have been able to make a profit with our original works and maintain our credibility. Of course, we owe that to our customers who have continued to support us.
4Gamer:
It's like a story about a manga artist who struggled when he was just starting out, and the story is being told in the form of a studio. Although, for example, have you never thought about building up your strengths as a development company doing subcontract work?
Kamitani:
Making original games was the most important element for me, so I had no intention of making the company a contractor for any other work.
4Gamer:
Also, in terms of being a subcontracted development company, Vanillaware's ability to create a variety of genres, such as action, RPG, and RTS, seems to be a major characteristic of the company. In terms of development companies, there are some that specialize in a particular genre.
Kamitani:
There's no question that making a series of the same games improves quality over time and eventually leads to a hit. However, I don't know how to feel about that style of working. I'd be scared that I wouldn't be allowed to do anything else. I want to be able to make a lot of different things.
4Gamer:
I'm curious, does Vanillaware use outsourcing?
Kamitani:
Basically, the only outsourcing we use is Basiscape for sound. When we ask publishers for work, we tell them that we can only take on projects that we have planned and developed ourselves.
We risk our lives to make games
4Gamer:
You mentioned that almost everything is done in-house. How many people does Vanillaware have now?
Kamitani:
Currently, we have twenty-four people.
4Gamer:
Twenty-four people on one project at a time?
Kamitani:
At the moment, we're still working towards our dream of Vanillaware having two lines of development in parallel, which would eventually mean twelve people per line. But we have a long way to go before we get there...
4Gamer:
I see. I was wondering if you have an "ideal team size" for game development?
Kamitani:
We had twelve people working on Odin Sphere and sixteen on Muramasa, but personally, I think the ideal number of people that one person should have to manage and delegate to is about five. If there are two managers, the team should ideally consist of 12 people, or 18 people if there are three managers. In our case, though, the background team is quite independent, so the number of people isn't calculated that tightly.
4Gamer:
In terms of Vanillaware's production process, are you personally involved with a large share of the overall work required?
Kamitani:
I'm not sure... I generally do the overall design, draw the characters and monsters, and write the scenario text. But at Vanillaware, everyone doesn't just perform one dedicated task, but works on all aspects of the game. All game development involves a lot of trial and error, and we often come up with great ideas during that process that weren't part of the initial plan. So if people involve themselves with various elements of development, it makes it easier to whip things into shape.
Kamitani:
In terms of game development, for example, there are many team management-related lectures at CEDEC and GDC, which tend to be about organizational theory. What do you think of that sort of thing?
Kamitani:
If a work has been clearly specced in advance, it is more efficient to create it in an organized manner with minimal loss. With my methods, though, it's hard to just follow the blueprint, so I have to be flexible and work with a small number of people who are able to adapt as the need arises.
4Gamer:
So Vanillaware is also focusing on a select few in order to maintain the quality of its work?
Kamitani:
It's not so much that we're that particular, but this is what I've come up with after giving thought to the ease of production. Increasing the number of people at a company isn't without its drawbacks from a management perspective, and from past experience I have learned that in systems where multiple companies collaborate, each company's intentions come into play and it can be unclear who is responsible for what, and no one will put their life into the work.
4Gamer:
Life?
Kamitani:
If something doesn't sell well, I'm always afraid that I won't be able to create again for another ten years. Or maybe, this time, I'm done for good. But If you don't risk your life to make a product that you won't regret, there really will be no tomorrow.
4Gamer:
I see. However, if you're going to put that much thought into making a game, it seems like making a game for smartphones would likely present more business opportunities at the moment.
Kamitani:
That may be true... but I'll continue to make consumer games that I personally like for as long as I'm allowed. That's what I'd like to do.
4Gamer:
So, essentially, you've become independent and are now able to "do what you want to do"?
Kamitani:
Exactly, exactly (laughs). Besides, it's not that I'm against smartphone games. Just that I believe that I can only convey to my customers the interesting experiences I've had myself. In that sense, I don't know much about smartphone games because I don't play them very often. I'm an old gamer (laughs). And so, I want to do things I personally find interesting.
4Gamer:
So, in the case of Dragon's Crown, what do you mean by "interesting"?
Kamitani:
Well, if there was a game like this, wouldn't you want to play it? (Laughs)
4Gamer:
I would (laughs). It's a belt-action style game from the past, with a strong growth element and Diablo-like treasure hunting elements. And when I heard that it could be played online or locally, I couldn't help but think, "This sounds like it was made for me!" I think there are a lot of players who would have thought, "What a great idea!" and I myself was one of them.
Kamitani:
Right? Dragon's Crown is a game I myself wanted to play!
Now I can die without a care in the world
Kamitani:
Wasn't this meant to be a Dragon's Crown interview, to begin with?
4Gamer:
Yes. Yes, it was.
Kamitani:
I don't think we've talked about Dragon's Crown at all!
4Gamer:
To be honest, I'm more than satisfied having heard so many interesting stories (chuckles).
Kamitani:
No, Atlus is gonna get mad at me!
4Gamer:
In the context of this whole conversation, what role does Dragon's Crown play in your opinion, Kamitani-san?
Kamitani:
Dragon's Crown is one of Vanillaware's biggest games, and it's not on a scale where we would normally be able to make it. Even if we were asked to make it again, it would probably be difficult. There were a lot of twists and turns along the way, but as a result of those, it is a very rare game that we were able to create over a period of four years. That's how we were able to put everything we could think of into it.
4Gamer:
The game was originally announced for release by UTV Ignition Games, a British company, and the rights were later transferred to Atlus.
Kamitani:
Yes, that's right. Originally, we started working on this project when the development of Muramasa had come to a close. I can't tell you the details, but it started as a project under UTV Ignition Games, but when that company withdrew from the game business, the project was in danger of being shut down.
4Gamer:
Normally, the project would have cancelled and that would have been the end of it.
Kamitani:
Normally, that may have been the case. But I really wanted to make this game a reality. So when the development funds ran out and Ignition began to consider selling the project, I approached Atlus again and said, "Please help me!"
4Gamer:
I think it was a great decision on the part of Atlus to fund the project. Is this due to the relationship of trust between them and you?
Kamitani:
I don't know (laughs). But if it had been a "project that would take four years" from the beginning, I don't think Atlus would have been able to go through with it. We were already halfway through the project, and Atlus felt that it was too good to let go, which is how they allowed us to continue development. So from Vanillaware's point of view, we were very lucky.
4Gamer:
So, looking back, you don't have many regrets about the game?
Kamitani:
Looking back on it again, it was a difficult process, and I think, "I don't know how we survived." But because it was such a long process, I was able to make changes to the things that I might have regretted. This is probably the largest project I've ever done, and the one I love the most. The only regret I have is that I didn't include mummies among the monsters...
4Gamer:
Hm?
Kamitani:
At the start of the project, I had a fantasy that we would release expansion packs like "Pyramid Dragon's Crown" and "Sengoku Dragon's Crown" after the game was out! It was a little delusional. I was so determined to reserve the mummies for a "Pyramid Dragon's Crown" expansion that I didn't include them in the game. However, there are no plans to release such an expansion, and it's only the mummy that got left out anyway...
4Gamer:
Ah, like Sorcerian. I wonder how many people know that stuff nowadays (chuckles).
Kamitani:
Dragon's Crown is a game that contains everything I really like. The game system is the same—it's packed with all kinds of homages, such as the art, the choose-your-own-adventure style, monsters, and events. I'd always fantasized about making a game like this before I died, and now I feel like I've finally done it. Now I can die with no worries.
4Gamer:
You can die without any worries? Don't you have other games you want to make?
Kamitani:
It doesn't mean I'm going to die right away! I want to be on the front lines of game production even when I'm old. I used to write endless proposals, fantasizing about them every day when I couldn't get a project approved, so I still have a lot of projects I want to work on. Even if I only count the ones that I absolutely must make from that list, that's still about ten games. There's a lot to do.
4Gamer:
I guess you want us all to play Dragon's Crown first, so you get the chance to make your next game.
Kamitani:
That's right. Dragon's Crown is something we've been working on for four years, so I hope that a lot of people will play it.
4Gamer:
So, actually getting around to the important thing here... Dragon's Crown...
Kamitani:
How about we just do a separate interview about Dragon's Crown?
4Gamer:
Yes, please!